Rosemary Lee, Part 2 of 3. Q. Who do you make work for?

A.

My response could be my audience or could be my participants. Like I said for the Square Dances, I wanted to make it for the women, give them a sort of gift. Though I feel like that piece is a gift for the women as much as it is a gift for those who see it. I would say the same for Common Dance – I am trying to give something to the participants which I think is a little bit different to when you work professionally, although I try to do that for any dancer I work with, professional or not. But you could argue there are some subtle differences there. It is about the kind of experience you want to give them, I really believe that. Having been a dancer myself and dancing for someone like Sue MacClennan, it is such a gift to be in someone else’s piece, to interpret that work, to discover it and to find a way to let that work come through you. I loved that opportunity, so I try to give all the dancers I work with and chance to find themselves in the work but to also find the work in them.

Equally, for the audience… I think it would be naive of me to say it’s for ‘everyone’. It is for anyone who finds it. Which is why when I work outside or for films on BBC I have no idea who turned the telly on then and caught it! I like that side of it. Having said that, there are audience I wouldn’t go out and make work for because I don’t feel I would get through in the same way. I don’t think my work is perfect for a teenage audience in a very deprived area. I don’t know whether I can speak to them, I think I’m too far removed. Having said that I’d love it if they were in the audience!

Who’s it for? It’s a very good question. It sort of depends on each commission, so Square Dances felt very much like it was for Londoners, for people who’d made the journey. I wanted to give them something in the heart of London. Something like The Suchness of Eddy and Henny I knew was going to go to more dance festivals, so I knew I was going to be playing to dance audiences in a sense. So that was made with that thought. I’ve got to make a work of art, as to whether people are trained or not. I don’t know whether I’ve quite answered that! Good question.

Interview with choreographer Rosemary Lee - part 1 of 3

You’ve worked with a lot of people of different ages and abilities, and in large scale sight specific settings. I am interested in what it is in particular about that sort of work, that sort of making which interests  you?

So, what attracts me? Well let’s break it down – there’s the different ages, there’s the size of the cast, there’s the site specificity and there’s the untrained and trained dancers - and there are different reasons for each of them.

If I start on the site-specific , there are many reasons why I use that – one, is because I get a different audience, and that’s regardless of whether I am working indoors or outdoors. If the site is not a theatre, you’re going to get a different audience. And that interests me because I’ve always felt, ever since the time I was a student, and I think I still feel this – that although I love going to the theatre there is a certain person who is going to be at the Theatre and that’s to do with their income and their background. Now, I still think I’m basically making work for a middle class audience, even when I’m outdoors, but with something like Square Dances you’re also going to get the odd passer by, particularly in rehearsals. You’re still exposing people who would have never expected to come and see something like this; you’re giving them something. 

Although I want to reach an audience that is going to get something from my work, I’m quite curious about trying to do that with different kinds of audiences. So outdoors you get the passerby, and indoors, for instance when I did something in the Fort Dunlop tyre factory, off the M6 in Birmingham, I got a lot of the old workers coming back to see what had happened to the old building. They hadn’t really come to see the dance, they’d come to come back into the place in which they’d worked all their lives. But to just have someone like that in the audience and for them to ssee their workplace transformed, I felt quite privileged that they would come. They’re not going to go to the Hippodrome to see a dance performance, but they are going to come back to the factory they knew.

So I’m getting a different audience, and I think artistically, I really like the limitation it gives me.

There is still a limitation in a black box theatre but with site specific pieces  is that– often you’ve got daylight if its outdoors, so the magic is different. You’ve got to create a different kind of magic which is reliant on the performance quality of the participant, which I’m really interested in at the moment. You are challenged by the context, the noise, the other worlds coming in that I actually really enjoy. How can I transform this particular site at this particular time? How can I enhance it or make it something different for a few minutes of the day and then it’s gone again. I really like that challenge. Having said that, I’m very picky! If someone said so something in this quadrangle I don’t do that at all, its only sites that maje me feel I can create some other atmosphere or augment the atmosphere that I feel is there, is dormant that I want to somehow enhance.

So the site is really critical for me and the challenges are delightful. I like the compositional challenge of how to make this space work with people in it. Do I need to fill it with 100 women or will something with just one person work?

Number of people – so the large scaleness of it, I think this is an interesting one. A while back Lyn Gardner the Theatre critic wrote a review of something she saw in Brighton where she said something like ‘these big participatory dances are just a way of choreographers getting dancers for nothing’ like it’s a kind of exploitation. I think it’s a valid point and it’s a question we need to keep asking ourselves: why are we doing this? But for me the numbers… if the piece feel like it requires 100 that’s due to the sight. For the women’s Square Dances the reason I wanted to make a piece for 100 women was a) because I felt the sight was right for it but b) because I had a personal reaction to my last piece, Common Dance where I had to turn many women of your age away and I didn’t like that. There was a real awkwardness that I felt I had to take every man and turn away 100 so many women. So there was a huge desire in me to make a work, find a site where I can literally take everybody that applies. Having said that, I didn’t take everyone because of stamina or physicality that I thought didn’t quite work so I’m my own worst enemy there, but I more or less did. So there’s different reasons there for why I did that.

The large number is not that I’m necessarily interested in making work for that many people and that that’s somehow better than working with one person, it’s just different. There’s a slight problem in thinking that choreographers want more, so it’s bigger and better. I don’t think that’s the case, it actually requires a certain skill to make something work for that many people. I think when I work with big groups like that I am saying something about humanity which I can’t say with four people. The mass of people says something about the numbers of people who have passed through that space, or says something about community or society, or says something about women. So for me its about what the effect of the work on people is. Sometimes I want to work with big groups because I think I can say something different and other times I want to go down to one because I can say something with that one person.

Whenever I’m working in what I call an epic way (over 30 people say) I’m also equally trying to find an intimacy in an epic form. How can I create something intimate and delicate with such a big block of people, which you mostly think of as spectacle. I’m really fascinated by that. The other reason is that I want to give people opportunities and there are very few opportunities for people who dance and have a connection in their heart and soul with dance like I do. It’s really dormant for some people too and its an absolute privilege for me to water the garden again and let them come up for a bit and let them see the air and taste the dance.  If I’m going to make a point about humanity, I can’t make it with twenty year old women. That’s a very small area of our lives. I feel I need to show people what it is to exist as a child and as an older woman.

Walked Path

This line of walked path reminded me of Richard Long's work. This is my brother, Adam. We have walked here so many times.

First rehearsal and 'Climb Every Mountain.'

It was wonderful to meet the other walkers on Tuesday evening for our first rehearsal at the Siobhan Davies Studios. We sang, moved and tried out different game like tasks that will form a loop of people travelling in and out of the building. My favourite game was 'Top of Your Lungs' which consisted of walking out on the the fire escape from the roof studio and shouting/singing  a line from your favourite feel good song. Matthias's example was 'Climb Every Mountain' from The Sound of Music...

See 0.59 for full effect and imagine wide arms flung out!

Richard Long: Art made by Walking

I have just discovered this famous land artist - whose work is the result of walks all around the world, often in remote and wild areas. He makes traces in the landscapes he passes through, upturning stones, rolling snowballs...




'In the nature of things:
Art about mobility, lightness and freedom.
Simple creative acts of walking and marking
about place, locality, time, distance and measurement.
Works using raw materials and my human scale
in the reality of landscapes.'




This particular piece 'A Line made by Walking' (1967) was made when Long was still studying at Art school, aged 22. He walked back and forth along this straight line. His performance becoming his sculpture.

http://www.richardlong.org/Sculptures/sculptures11.html

Alex Murphy on people, performance and piecing it together

Alex Murphy, Creative Projects Co-ordinator

To what extent are the Creative Project’s projects you create for the participants; and by contrast perhaps, to what extent are they for the SDD ‘audience’ or those on the outside?

Our objective is to work with artists to create projects that really involve people in the artistic process. So we spend a lot of time thinking about the people who we will work with, and how to make the project a rich, engaging and accessible experience for them, that will lead to an artistic outcome. So the participants are really key. We exist to give people an experience, through the arts and through the projects that we deliver. That’s really what makes our work different to the company’s projects, or the artists who come in to exhibit in the building. Our focus is on the people who get involved, as well as the artists who are leading the creative process.

So Creative Projects are for the participants, however we also want to create work which is interesting to a wider audience. Something that is not just for the family and friends of those involved. And I think it is, because of the artists we work with. We are creating work that is rich and deep and interesting to a wider audience.

In terms of SDD’s ‘other audience’ or ‘those on the outside’, we’re currently looking into ways in which we can present this work to give it that platform, and expose it to a wider audience. I think we can struggle, because people see the work as non-professional – it’s not trained dancers doing the performance, it’s young people, or the public. Whereas we, and the artists we are working with, see it as a piece of art. How do we present this work so that it can be enjoyed by more people in audience terms? That’s a really interesting challenge.

I am interested in your ideas surrounding performance. Are your projects often outcome-led? Is performance necessary? What is the effect of this on your work and for those involved?
I think this is a really interesting question. Our projects are very much process-led. We use the making processes of the artists we work with as a starting point. It’s very important to us that people have a good experience when they come and take part in projects, so that’s definitely the focus of the work we’re doing. However, having an outcome can be a really important part of that process.

Performance is a really powerful thing to do as participant in a project. Also, if we’re saying we are creating art through these projects, art is something that by its nature should be shared. It’s really the essence of it – you’re creating something, sharing it and drawing other people into it.

Is performance necessary? It really depends on what the project is. A project could be an exploratory process which aims to enrich the people involved, in which case the outcomes may happen later individually, or in a follow-on project, and I think that’s valid. But if we create something, then not sharing it is a missed opportunity for the participants and for the wider audience who would then get to experience that.

So, we’re not outcome-led, we’re process led. Sometimes a presentation of the work is a really valid part of that process, but it’s not the only way to end a project. We’re quite happy to judge that on each project.

Finally, I want to know… Why do you work in the Arts?
Because I like art! It’s my enjoyment and the thing I’m interested in. I think it is as simple as that actually! I get a lot from being involved in art, so if I can come to work and get involved with it there too, I’m going to be happier. I want work that enriches and challenges me in ways that I enjoy. I think because I’ve had good experiences with the arts, and specifically working with the arts in this way, I want to share that, and open it out to people.

Anything else to add?

There’s a question I’ve been musing on for a while. I tell people about my work and they say ‘Oh contemporary dance… I’ve really tried to enjoy that.’  They go along, they watch it…But somehow there’s a disconnect when they’re watching dance, in a way that they don’t have when they read, or see art or watch theatre even. It’s quite fascinating - I can kind of relate to it, I think a lot of people have felt that disconnect. I’m really interested in what that is about. Because, of all the art forms, it’s the one which you should have more of a connection with. Not everyone can paint or sculpt, but everyone has a body that moves. So why people have that disconnection from dance is something I’m really interested in. 

A lot of what I think about when we are approaching people who may not have done dance before is that there is that barrier. People have a barrier to dance and choreography and being creative with their bodies that is very real. It can be a fear thing, or a physical self-consciousness. But also, there is something about dance performance which isn’t connecting with people. I don’t have an answer for what that is. It seems a bit illogical, because it’s a human body moving. We should all be able to relate to that. One of the things we aim to achieve through our projects is to address that barrier.

Pedestrian

Here is a shot taken from last weekend by Lucy Cash as her and Becky Edmunds filmed south londoners walking for the film...